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A Sandbox Request: Allow Bombs and Bubbles in High-Sec

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Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 315	Posted - 2012.03.30 21:00:00 - [1] - Quote A few recent changes to game play mechanics have been a bit detrimental to the innovation-rewarding nature of the game. However, they have also been fair. The "boomerang method" might have been clever, but it created a sort of imbalance that caused more damage to the game's integrity than the damage caused by making the game slightly less open-ended. Fine, we get that. What we don't get is why some legitimate game play mechanics are limited in the first place. Two such mechanics are bombs launched from bomb launchers, and interdiction bubbles, the use of which is impossible in empire space. Nothing from a game play or RP perspective dictates that this should not be a possibility; the only limiting factors are the rules set by CCP. There must be consequences for every action, and therefore I see no reason why the modules themselves should be treated any differently than combat boosters; their presence can and should be illegal in high-sec and result in attack by faction police and customs agent ships. Additional safety measures, such as the gate/station smartbomb "at 0" protections, can apply to their usage. However, the potential to use them in high-sec and low-sec should be unrestricted, in the same way that the potential capability of a -10 sec-rated pilot to undock from a high-sec station and get kills is unrestricted. Restricting these game play elements has always been a mistake on CCP's part, but at no point in time did I feel stronger about the issue than I do now. Allowing one weapon, but not another, does not make sense. This isn't a case of capital ships in high-sec, which according to lore are essentially too big to use jump gates. Not allowing bombs or interdiction bubbles in empire space, with proper consequences, makes about as much sense as outlawing the use of 1400mm artillery or ECM bursts and smartbombs. Game balancing should be all about fairness, and not convenience. Allowing bombs and bubbles to be used in empire space would be fair. Otherwise, CCP should look into restricting the use of a plethora of other modules and game play mechanics that are not in line with the sensibilities of some of EVE's players.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 315	Posted - 2012.03.30 21:04:00 - [2] - Quote The point I'm trying to make is that CONCORD wouldn't tolerate the use of bombs and bubbles in high-sec. However, they should still be allowed to be used. You will lose your ship if you use these things. Katja Faith wrote: Oooh, and I want to be able to bring my main's caps into high to harass small tower holders!!! Can I? Please? Huh, please? You can't, because caps are too big to use star gates, and high-sec systems are essentially cyno-jammed by NPCs.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 315	Posted - 2012.03.30 21:10:00 - [3] - Quote Masamune Dekoro wrote: This is fine, as long as -10.0 sec players are ganked and podded by Concord upon entering highsec. Fair enough? It will be fair if you can provide an argument that supports such a change from a game play perspective. Your proposal has nothing to do with the one I made, and therefore can't be a tradeoff for it.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 315	Posted - 2012.03.30 21:11:00 - [4] - Quote PotatoOverdose wrote: Not being able to launch a bomb in hisec never made any sense. There's a red button on my dashboard. Why can't I mash buttan? Maybe have launching a bomb cause instant GCC instead. Absolutely. Nick Bison wrote: Uhhh really ... so every HiSec gate can be bubbled so you can scan every ship coming thru ? Big fat no. Bubbling would result in a CONCORD response if any neutral ship touches the bubble. Interdictors are expensive.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 316	Posted - 2012.03.30 21:18:00 - [5] - Quote THE L0CK wrote: If high is cyno-jam by the npc's then isn't it pretty obvious that its bubble jammed as well? I'm not sure how you can jam a bubble, but even if it's made possible from a RP perspective, "jamming" doesn't stop a big ol' boom-boom from exploding. Herping yourDerp wrote: uh -10 player on jita undock uses orca to get bomber fires bomb again, and again same with bubbles bubble somewhere, ok you died but i'm still stuck in a bubble. No different from the -10 player being able to fire a 1400mm volley. Micheal Dietrich wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: Bubbling would result in a CONCORD response if any neutral ship touches the bubble. Interdictors are expensive. But Un-ganged Neutrals aren't affected and are free to scan. And the person who bubbled just lost a 50-million-ISK ship.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 316	Posted - 2012.03.30 21:32:00 - [6] - Quote You don't need bubbles to scan ships, and you don't need bubbles to tackle ships at gates. To everyone else: keep in mind that I'm all for keeping the current safety mechanisms for AoE weapons for bombs. You wouldn't be able to bomb too close to a gate or station due to the "at 0" element. However, people off-range or in belts/deadspace should be fair game. Why should smartbombs and ECM bursts be allowed, but not bombs?
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 316	Posted - 2012.03.30 21:45:00 - [7] - Quote Nick Bison wrote: It's not inefficient, it's a matter of smart-bombs and ECM burst are mounted on your ship and therefore, you accept the risk of CONCORD if you hit a neut or something, once a bubble is anchored, does CONCORD just kill the bubble and let the person who anchored go about their business. Seems to be a "no risk" method of a ganker getting a ship who is warping-to-zero to stop may KM from a gate .... My thread's request deals specifically with bomb launchers and interdictor/heavy interdictor bubbles. If I have to address the anchored bubbles issue, then I simply suggest that the same anchoring rules apply to all areas of high-sec space. Either disallow anchoring completely, or allow it completely. If it's the latter, then CONCORD should treat anchored bubbles in the same manner that it treats ship bubbles; pop the perp if any neutral player ship touches the bubble, and the bubble itself.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 316	Posted - 2012.03.30 21:57:00 - [8] - Quote Micheal Dietrich wrote: Stations, additional pos buildings, and sealed containers are not directly blocking space lanes or interrupting other players. Bubbles will. And I personally don't feel like being stopped at every single freaking gate as I'm trying to quickly get across the system to help a corpmate out. And the ability to bubble you, at the expense of my ship, is an exact counter to your ability to rush to another location uninhibited. Suicide-ganking blocks space lanes and interrupts other players. However, it is allowed. Why should bombs and bubbles be disallowed on similar grounds? @Fredfredbug4: Please read the OP carefully, and the remainder of my posts, to see why the situations you describe would essentially be impossible.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 316	Posted - 2012.03.30 22:09:00 - [9] - Quote Acac Sunflyier wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: A few recent changes to game play mechanics have been a bit detrimental to the innovation-rewarding nature of the game. I like that you start off the basis of your request with a declaration without going into detail as to what these changes are. This would be very important, considering that this is the basis for your whole argument. That line might set the tone for, but is definitely not the basis of my argument. I am simply making an argument for fairness, which the recent changes, such as the "boomerang method," address. These changes are fair. Either way, this thread is simply an expression of a want, and not a concrete demand. I am not exactly throwing a tantrum because the majority is disagreeing with me. In fact I will be quite satisfied if people provide concise, rational arguments for why my proposal is detrimental to the game. Of course this will not stop the majority of people from barfing out memes and "htfu" replies, even though I am not personally vested in this proposal, which I made simply to have a decent discussion of the merits of certain game play mechanics. Micheal Dietrich wrote: Current suicide ganks don't block nearly the amount of people that a bubble would and you know that. It would be like fish in a barrel. And I can't believe you are still trying to pull ship cost. 50 mil is nothing when you destroy a 1 bil freighter carrying several bil in goods. Even if it was a big deal it certainly would not be counter to being stopped at every gate between Jita and Amarr. Concorde pops the bubble on first nuetral throug it, how does that sound? A bubble is also not a direct cause of death for everyone trapped in it, but at most a two-minute hindrance of their movement. Besides, what kills the freighter isn't the bubble, but direct firepower. A bunch of Tornadoes will pop that freighter regardless of whether it gets tackled or not.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 316	Posted - 2012.03.30 22:32:00 - [10] - Quote Micheal Dietrich wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: A bubble is also not a direct cause of death for everyone trapped in it, but at most a two-minute hindrance of their movement. Besides, what kills the freighter isn't the bubble, but direct firepower. A bunch of Tornadoes will pop that freighter regardless of whether it gets tackled or not. Nuets and vamps are not a direct cause of death and yet you get popped for those actions as well, why should the bubble be any different for popping, or am I no longer talking to Mr. consequences in Space here? You're putting words in my mouth. I never mentioned anything about "no popping."
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 316	Posted - 2012.03.31 01:08:00 - [11] - Quote Horza Phlebas wrote: Lets do some math. 40 Bombers, instantly kill a Jump Freighter. Cost of 40 Bombers is around 1.5Billion Isk. Now its not hard to find a spot in Jita with 5 JumpFrieghters, 6 Frieghters, and 10 Hualers in the one place. 5 JumpFrieghters = 35B Isk 6 Freighters = 7B Isk 10 Hualers = 7B Isk Total Damage = 49Billion Isk damage Cost to Bombers = 1.5bi Sounds like Profit to me. I understand your point, but I did specifically mention that the same safeties that apply to smartbombs would apply to bomber bombs as well. That is, the bombs wouldn't work "at 0" to gates and stations. You could still nail a bunch of people who come out of a gate/get off station dock, but hey, you can do that now with smartbombs as well. Besides, after a few days of this bombing, people will (hopefully) wise up and not just autopilot through one of Jita's many gates. Player initiative and all that. If they don't, then they can only blame themselves.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 316	Posted - 2012.03.31 01:24:00 - [12] - Quote Horza Phlebas wrote: Yes you can find that many freighters off a gate in Jita. Also your proposing bubbles in highsec also.. and that would catch 20-50 Ships in Jita easily. Also Smartbombs only do around 2400 Volley and require 8Slot Battleship, bombs do 8000 Volley. All of these are just numbers and not arguments against my proposal. It's like saying "1400mm artillery does 237% the volley damage of tachyon beams, and therefore shouldn't be allowed in empire." If a bunch of people want to lump their freighters into a tight group in Jita, they should have the right to do so. Just like I should have the right to launch a bomb, and face the consequences of doing so. The fact that 95% of all Jita traffic goes through a single gate (voluntarily) doesn't make my proposal less valid.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 316	Posted - 2012.03.31 01:34:00 - [13] - Quote Horza Phlebas wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: All of these are just numbers and not arguments against my proposal. Numbers are a very valid Argument. Lets take a Fleet of 300 ( The larger Alliances could get this together easily ) A fleet of 300, could effectively bubble every gate in jita indefinitely, and rain down bombs destroying EVERY ship that enters or attempts to leave jita. JITA would be shut down, and the big alliances would not care about the cost, they do it for the lol's Cost is actually quite a significant factor in this proposal. Not only would it cost you the price of a dictor to bubble a gate for (at most) two minutes, but they (and a lot of other T2 stuff) would rise in price both as an effect of an increase in destruction and an effect of a lot more materials being destroyed in the game's primary market hub. A dictor costs roughly 40 million at the moment. An hour of bubbles on just one gate is 1.2 billion, and 24 hours on 7 gates is 201.6 billion. That's not an insignificant amount of money, especially when you consider that there's no insurance.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 316	Posted - 2012.03.31 01:39:00 - [14] - Quote Roll Sizzle Beef wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: [quote=Horza Phlebas]Though I disagree about the "safety lock" thing. I mean, you can't really preempt the firing of an explosive device like that. Otherwise missiles would be banned too. The risk of collateral damage is too great with a free floating dumb shell from hell. Smart bombs are at least within proximity and overview helm commands can easily dictate any distance to neutrals. And missiles are even more fool proof as they self deactivate when out of range or lose site of target and have smart tracking that has, so far in current history, ever jumped targets. Except that missiles used to do AoE damage until CCP made changes. Also, smartbombs have a set range, and still hit cloaked targets; that is, they are no less dangerous than bomber bombs in practice.

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